Go media vector pack torrent. This mark is found on guns that is not made in Belgium by countries that use proofs that is not recognized by the Belgian Proof House. The mark is applied after the gun has passed the Belgian proof. Double proof as prescribed by the French law of 1810. 1810 - Liege. Black powder proof for rifles and shotguns. Liege, Belgium has been a gunmaking center for centuries. The Liege proof house was established in 1672 and it is the oldest European proof house still in operation. Since the evolution of the modern side-by-side and over/under hammerless shotguns in the late 19th Century, Belgian gunmakers have turned out some of the best.
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Post subject: Belgian Shotgun Identification Guide
Diamond Grade
Joined: Sun Apr 30, 2006 11:16 pm Posts: 1317 Location: Glendale, AZ
Belgian Shotgun Identification The Banc d’Epreuves de Liege proved 233,526 double barrel smoothbore guns in 1889, the majority for export. In 1899 alone, the U.S. firms of Hartley & Graham and Simmons Hardware bought 90,000 shotguns, rifles, and handguns from Liege gunmakers. Most of the Belgian guns imported before WWI were not of high quality when new, and NO vintage shotgun should be fired, with any load, until examined by a double gun specialist smith. Belgian makers http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/a% .. s%20gb.htm Maker’s marks http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/18490292 Belgian Trade names http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_Trade_Marks.html Proof Marks - Poincons Officiels du Banc D'Epreuves de Liege http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/17575181 Final proof is the crowned ELG mark. The Perron (tower) indicates provisional blackpowder proof even on guns later voluntary proved with smokeless powder; which are marked with a Lion over PV. If there is no Lion over PV, the gun was NOT proved for smokeless powder. The usual c. 1900 Belgian 12 gauge bore would be 18.4 mm = .724' Conversion table - 1 millimeter = 0.0393700787 inches http://www.convertunits.com/from/mm/to/inches Date of Manufacture NON POUR BALLE - choked unrifled bores used 1878 - 1897 1898 - 1910 – Bore in mm (22 cm from breech) and muzzle (choke constriction) appear next to each other after ‘choke’ 1910 – 1924 – Bore in mm is over muzzle dimension Prior to 1924 the gauge would be indicated within a diamond. Post-1924 - A 12-70 in an Omega lying is the gauge and chamber length in mm., and would indicate the gun is chambered for 12ga 70mm - 2 3/4” length shells. Please note that many Belgian guns will be chambered for: 2 1/2” - 63mm 20g, 2 9/16” - 65mm 16g, and may be 2 5/8” 12g. Date of Proof codes– Lettres Annales used after 1921
_________________ http://sites.google.com/a/damascusknowl .. m/www/home Put your trust in God; but mind to keep your powder dry! Oliver Cromwell Last edited by revdocdrew on Fri Dec 03, 2010 5:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post subject: Re: Belgian Shotgun Identification Guide
Diamond Grade
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:35 pm Posts: 1784 Location: AZ (heart in KS)
Another version of the Greek letters 1948-1961 Poincons Officiels du Banc D'Epreuves de Liege from 'Trade & Hallmarks on Firearms in Belgium' Bruno Joos De Ter Beerst, 1998 1 millimeters = about 0.04 inches 70 mm = 2 3/4' chamber 17.0 = .670'; 16.3 = .642'; choke constriction of .028' or 16g Light Full 18.0 = .709; 18.7 = .736'; choke constriction of .027' or Improved Modified 18.4 was the usual c. 1900 Belgian 12b = .724' After 1924 the markings were 'Choke' and bore only. Barrel weight at the time of Smokeless proof: 1 kilogram = 2.2046 pounds; 1.3555 Kg = 3 pounds. May also be stamped '1K3555' after 1924 without the decimal. If the barrels now weigh >3% less (from honing), the gun is considered out of proof
_________________ http://sites.google.com/a/damascusknowl .. m/www/home Richard Baxter (1615-1691), Directions Against Covetousness 'Be more careful to use what you have, than to get more.' Kingsley Brown 'Shoot more, shop less.' Last edited by Drew Hause on Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:45 pm, edited 12 times in total.
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Post subject: Re: Belgian Shotgun Identification Guide
Diamond Grade
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:35 pm Posts: 1784 Location: AZ (heart in KS)
The Lion Rampant over PV was introduced for military rifles of 8mm & smaller in 1898 & then applied to the supplementary smokeless proof for shotguns in 1903. It was mandatory post-1924. Lion over SCH or EC were optional smokeless powder proofs used 1891-1924 for 'Schultze' or 'EC' powders. 1853-1877 inspector's (controller's) marks were crowned rather than spangled. PLEASE NOTE: Inspector's marks can not be used to establish date of manufacture; they were re-used over time and the significance of some has been lost. Load data used 1897-1903 12g Manufacture Liegeoise likely proved with Mullerite (stylized lion over M) for a service load of 2.70 grams POUDRE = 41.67 grains = 3 Dr. Eq. (42 grains). 'E.C.' No. 1 & 'Schultze' were also 42 gr. = 3 Dr. Eq. 36 grams PLOMBE = 1 1/4 oz. shot
_________________ http://sites.google.com/a/damascusknowl .. m/www/home Richard Baxter (1615-1691), Directions Against Covetousness 'Be more careful to use what you have, than to get more.' Kingsley Brown 'Shoot more, shop less.' Last edited by Drew Hause on Thu May 30, 2019 5:59 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Post subject: Re: Belgian Shotgun Identification Guide
Utility Grade
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2014 3:30 am Posts: 3 Location: Umeå, Sweden
Hi! I have inherited a F.Dumoulin & Cie Liege of my grandfather. It has been a little difficult to identify which year that the shotgun is made . And I hope to be able to use this fine weapon to hunt grouse in the future, just like my grandfather did. Hope you can help me! Klick on the link to see the markings on the shotgun. regards Markus https://www.dropbox.com/sc/0sf7osf1dtg1s3r/AABKOd3k4GaQV_ppAci4eWNka
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Post subject: Re: Belgian Shotgun Identification Guide
Tournament Grade
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 5:28 pm Posts: 108
Markus, clearly your gun is from 1943, but look, you have used a 2011 old post. Best regards
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Post subject: Re: Belgian Shotgun Identification Guide
Diamond Grade
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:35 pm Posts: 1784 Location: AZ (heart in KS)
Belgian Service & Proof Load Pressures Banc D'Epreuves Des Armes a Feu De Liege (Proof House for Firearms of Liege) 1906 https://books.google.com/books?id=5fxGA .. g=PA52&lpg 12g - about 1 1/4 oz. / 3 1/4 Dram Eq. (1220 fps). (12g 5.8 grams = 89.5 grains = 3 1/4 Dram) 16g - about 1 oz. / 2 1/2 Dram Eq. (1165 fps). 20g - about 7/8 oz. / 2 1/4 Dram Eq. (1155 fps). Powder was not specified, but appears to be a Black Powder No. 4 After the proof house revisions of 1924, a Certificat d’epreuve could be issued and specified: “The pressure developed, measured by crusher type device , lower or equal to 600 kg per square centimeter for sizes 16, 12, 10, 8 & 4; 670 pounds per square inch for sizes 20, 24 and smaller.” 600 kg/cm2 = 8534 psi SERVICE pressure; 670 kg/cm2 = 9530 psi SERVICE pressure + 10-14% by piezoelectric transducer measurement. 20 g was PROVED at 1000 kg/cm2 = 14,223 psi 12g PROVED at 900 kg/cm2 = 12,801 psi Transducer numbers for 20g would be close to 15,500 psi; 12g about 14,000 psi The Commission Internationale Permanente pour l'Epreuve des Armes à Feu Portatives standards were not ratified until 1969. http://www.cip-bobp.org/homologation/en .. _type_id=7 Pressures are measured by transducers 12g 65mm and 70mm “standard proof” lead or steel (limited to no larger than 3.25 mm and max. fps 1,300) SERVICE pressure 740 BAR = 10,733 psi; Maximum statistical individual pressure 850 BAR = 12,328 psi; PROOF 930 BAR = 13,489 psi. Both 65 and 70 mm 16g standard is SERVICE 780 BAR or 11,313 psi; PROOF 980 BAR or 14,214 psi. Both 65 and 70 mm 20g standard is SERVICE 830 BAR or 12,038 psi; PROOF 1040 BAR or 15,084 psi.
_________________ http://sites.google.com/a/damascusknowl .. m/www/home Richard Baxter (1615-1691), Directions Against Covetousness 'Be more careful to use what you have, than to get more.' Kingsley Brown 'Shoot more, shop less.' Last edited by Drew Hause on Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:38 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post subject: Re: Belgian Shotgun Identification Guide
Diamond Grade
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:35 pm Posts: 1784 Location: AZ (heart in KS)
Lettre Annale / Date of Control marks can be difficult to decipher Lower case cursive 'p' = 1937 Spangled B = controller's mark Stylized lion over PV = Smokeless Proof Crowned ELG = post-1893 12-70 in an Omega lying = post 1924 gauge and chamber length in mm. Les lettres de l'alphabet
_________________ http://sites.google.com/a/damascusknowl .. m/www/home Richard Baxter (1615-1691), Directions Against Covetousness 'Be more careful to use what you have, than to get more.' Kingsley Brown 'Shoot more, shop less.' Last edited by Drew Hause on Mon Jul 24, 2017 3:22 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Post subject: Re: Belgian Shotgun Identification Guide
Diamond Grade
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:35 pm Posts: 1784 Location: AZ (heart in KS)
Good examples of the information that can be derived from adequate images https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewto .. 5&t=471622 https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewto .. 5&t=474548
_________________ http://sites.google.com/a/damascusknowl .. m/www/home Richard Baxter (1615-1691), Directions Against Covetousness 'Be more careful to use what you have, than to get more.' Kingsley Brown 'Shoot more, shop less.' Last edited by Drew Hause on Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post subject: Re: Belgian Shotgun Identification Guide
Utility Grade
Joined: Mon May 14, 2018 1:39 pm Posts: 3
Hey I have a F. Dumoulin & Co. 12 gauge side by side with double hammers. It’s complete. It’s very old but I’d like to know more about it. I’m a ypunger collector/gun activist. I live in Tennessee and would love help on identifying this gun down to the year and place made. I’m very excited and can’t wait for some replies. Thank y’all for your help ahead of time! I will have to upload some pictures later when I get to my computer. I’m very excited about this gun because I think the serial number is 106. I can’t find any other mumbers on the gun other than the multiple proof markings that I will post later. Please someone let me know that they know about these Belgian doubles! Thank y’all again!
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Post subject: Re: Belgian Shotgun Identification Guide
Field Grade
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2015 7:23 am Posts: 21 Location: Brisbane, Australia
outlawman7 - The reason for a lack of response here may be found in the post immediately above yours.
Post subject: Re: Belgian Shotgun Identification Guide
Utility Grade
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2018 2:15 pm Posts: 1
I have my grand dads Belgian Browning A5 Sweet Sixteen. It has a gold trigger and serial number starts with an x. I’m very curious as to why there is an “FN” above the serial #. Any help would be appreciated.
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Post subject: Re: Belgian Shotgun Identification Guide
Diamond Grade
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:35 pm Posts: 1784 Location: AZ (heart in KS)
IF YOU HAVE A QUESTION ABOUT YOUR VINTAGE BELGIAN SHOTGUN, PLEASE START A 'NEW TOPIC'
_________________ http://sites.google.com/a/damascusknowl .. m/www/home Richard Baxter (1615-1691), Directions Against Covetousness 'Be more careful to use what you have, than to get more.' Kingsley Brown 'Shoot more, shop less.'
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Post subject: Re: Belgian Shotgun Identification Guide
Utility Grade
Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2020 6:04 pm Posts: 1
Have a us arms Belgium, looking for info, reciever and barrel are stamped with 1563 has the circle elf star, has the Le peron, barrel ha a 33 stamp and an 18.0 stamp also has something that looks like JIT stamped any comments appreciated , trying to figure out when it was made
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Liege Shotgun Serial Numbers Chart
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[ 13 posts ]
Liege Shotgun Serial Numbers Number
SOLD FOR:$1,130.97 Make: Browning (Fabrique Nationale Herstal) Model: Liege B26 /27 (we determined the year of manufacture to be 1981, making this shotgun fall between the B-26 and B-27. the B-27 was not cataloged) Serial Number: L13PZ02317 Year of Manufacture: 1981 (PZ date code) Gauge: 12 Gauge, 2 ¾” Shells Action Type: Top Lever Break Over/Under (O/U) with Single Selective Trigger and Ejectors Markings: The left side of the upper barrel is marked “BROWNING ARMS COMPANY MORGAN, UTAH & MONTREAL P.Q. / FABRIQUE NATIONALE HERSTAL / MADE IN BELGIUM” followed by “CHROME”, an “A” with a cross over it, a “PV” proof mark, “12w-70” in an Omega and “18 4”. The left side of the lower barrel has a stylized “J”, an enclosed “1Kg 504”, a “PV” proof mark, “12w-70” in an Omega and “18 4”. The lug that retains the forearm is marked with a “T”, “T” and “0”. There are a whole series of inspection marks on the underside of the monobloc and “YY” on the underside of the barrel just ahead of it. The right side of the upper barrel is marked “PATENT PENDING / SPECIAL STEEL 12GA. SHELLS_2 ¾”” and the right side of the lower barrel is marked “02317”. The right side of both barrels are marked “**$” to denote Skeet choke. There is a “Z” above the forward barrel lug on the right side of the monobloc. The forearm seems unmarked. The inside of the receiver is marked with a “PV” proof mark and “2317”. The upper tang is marked “L13PZ02317”. There is a Browning Buckmark on the trigger guard and “BrowninG” preceded by a Buckmark on each side of the receiver. Barrel Length: 28” Choke: Skeet (**$) and Skeet (**$) Sights / Optics: This shotgun is mounted with an orange fiber optic front sight on a 9/16” wide ventilated rib. Stock Configuration & Condition: The stocks are checkered walnut. The forearm and pistol grip checkering is unmarred. The only notable marks are a few compression marks on the belly of the buttstock. There are no chips, cracks or scratches in either stock; only some light handling marks. The LOP measures 13 ½” from the front of the trigger to the back of the White Line black ventilated rubber recoil pad. The drop at the comb is about 1 ½” and the drop at the heel about 2 3/8”. The stocks rate in about Excellent overall condition. Type of Finish: Blue Finish Originality: All Original Bore Condition: The bores are bright. There is no erosion. Overall Condition: This shotgun retains about 99% of its metal finish. The balance of the finish shows light handling marks. The markings are clear. Overall, this shotgun rates in about Excellent condition. Mechanics: The action functions correctly. The tang safety (up and down) is also the barrel selector switch (left and right.) This shotgun has a mechanical trigger. We have not fired this shotgun. Box, Paperwork & Accessories: None Our Assessment: This Browning Over/Under 12 gauge was made by FN after the Browning Superposed was largely discontinued. It was designed prior to the Japanese manufactured Citori. Although made primarily for the European market, some were imported to the United States. We believe this example was made for the U.S. as photos we have seen of the European models have sling swivels, and because an extra line on the barrel is marked “BROWNING ARMS COMPANY MORGAN, UTAH & MONTREAL P.Q.” In the Model Section above is a link to a discussion regarding another shotgun similar to this one, including a response from a representative of the Herstal Group authenticating the shotgun under discussion in that forum. It would appear these shotguns are both a Liege B26 made in the early 1980s. Our example is in exceptionally nice condition, apparently having seen little use and careful storage. The wooden forearm is released by depressing a “U” shaped button located in the front of the forearm, just below the barrels. The lack of a visible and normally placed forearm release gives this shotgun a very subtle, clean look. These Browning Liege shotguns are rare here and this one is sure to turn a few heads at the Skeet fields.